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[ByamCaravanner]

Lynn logged in here as recent as yesterday.  I sure thought he was a moderator over there. 

Yes, Lynn Eubank (SilverTwinkie) is a moderator over there... he was the one who editied my post. Although, I may be confused... because ST is signing his PMs "Eric" yet in a previous altercation, Lynn was sending me emails direct in the matter.

He also sent me five PMs saying things like, "to be really honest Steve, folks have told me they have warned you a number of times to stop things like this" and "I'm tryin' to meet you half way here"

I think this points to a key issue with the club... They just don't want to hear any bad news. As I was told by Scott Scheuermann (VAC Pres) at the International "If you are unhappy, it's not my problem"

[65GT]

Steve,

There's some confusion here...

Lynn is not SilverTwinkie.  SilverTwinkie is Eric from the Chicago area.  He's been critical of the club (or so claims to be) until the new forum came online, and was quickly extended an offer to become a moderator over there.  Is he now a WBCCI member?  No clue, he became mute over at Airforums when the question was posed.  Draw your own conclusion...

Lynn is from New Mexico, and from everything I could ever tell (his posts) a very nice guy.  My guess is his exit over there is that he got mixed up with the wrong crowd, realized it, and got out so he wouldn't be associate with that group anymore.

Maybe Tom C should have a discussion with Lynn and get an insider's opinion of what's wrong with his new forum.  It looks like leadership can't come to grips with what they've gotten themselves into, and it sure looks like they can't figure out how to get out of it either...

Feel free to correct your post if you like...

[ByamCaravanner]

Leo (and Rick),

Thanks for setting me straight... reminds me of the time I thought the two Andy R's over on AirForums where the same person. 

[Lynn]

Since my name has been brought into the fray, I suppose I should respond.

1. I am not Silvertwinkie and never have been. I register  as "Eubank" or "Lynn" on every of the several forums I take part in, and I sign as "Lynn."

2. I resigned as moderator from the WBCCI forums because of a very major job I had to take care of (and am stlill taking care of) from one of my clients.

3. However, I have not been taking part recently in either the WBCCI forums or the SaveWally forums because of what I feel to be misinformation being spread by several of the leading posters on both sites.


Lynn

[ByamCaravanner]

.. I have not been taking part recently in either the WBCCI forums or the SaveWally forums because of what I feel to be misinformation being spread by several of the leading posters on both sites.

Lynn, sorry about the confusion... though I am considered to be in the group of "young" folks, I am not really all that young and sometimes my brain shorthands the side details.

If you feel there is "Misinformation" being posted here I wish you would elaborate. There is nothing more divisive than making a non-specific allegation.

I

[65GT]

I reached out to Lynn almost immediately. We've had one round, but I'm assuming he's busy (as stated).  Hopefully I'll (we'll) hear back again...

[ByamCaravanner]

FYI, I received a PM from Greg that this post constitutes my 3rd "Infraction" saying I'm being too negative.
Click Here

[65GT]

Ah, the old 'I'll interpret your post and your actions any way I damn well please.  Don't confuse me with the facts, I'm in your head, know what you're thinking, and I'll act accordingly' trick.  Yeah sounds more like KAOS doesn't it?

Maybe we ought to operate under the Cone of Silence, far away from the reaches of the evil KAOS?

Can you remind me just how the WBCCI got stuck with this lemon of an arrangement in the first place?

Why did we need Greg Gibson and Vintage-Airstream.com to take over ownership of our club forums?  For just how long are we supposed to put up with this arrangement where Vintage-Airstream.com benefits and the WBCCI membership suffers? 

What were they thinking?   

When your infractions run out, make sure you POST the end result here.  Of course, we're also interested in the running tally..

Infraction# 66, infraction# 67, infraction# 68...

[KerrBett]

I must respond to an earlier post about caravan kitty fees and reimbursements to caravan leaders.  Clearly the poster has not been on a national caravan and has not attended the caravan course at International.  There is absolutely nothing "elitist" about caravan leaders having their expenses covered.  Without this provision, I seriously doubt that there would be any national caravans.  After all, why would anyone volunteer weeks and months of their time to research a new caravan route, spend months every year for a number of years managing registrations, bookings and leading the same caravan each year entirely at their own expense?  WBCCI caravans are the best bargain in the RV world because so much time and effort is volunteered.

As for the kitty fee being estimated high, I can tell you from personal experience as a leader of unit caravans that its way better to give your caravan members a refund at the end of a caravan than to pass the hat to cover an expense that was higher than expected. If the kitty fee doesn't cover, the caravan leader who made reservations, can be personally on the hook for the tab.  That sucks.

WBCCI has a surplus of nits to pick, but caravans are something that we do better and cheaper than anyone else. Nuff said.

Cheers,
Kerry

[ByamCaravanner]

  There is absolutely nothing "elitist" about caravan leaders having their expenses covered.

Kerry,

You use the word "elitist" in quotes, yet I did not use that word. I did not even make reference to Caravan leaders exhibiting such a character trait. I only stated that as is with the International Rally, the Caravan system is set up to have the general participants pay for the leaders expenses.

I can't say I know whether or not the Caravans are a good value... I think that is probably rather subjective based on who is making the judgement.

As with the International Rally, If you can stay for a month of 30amp parking and get yourself an easy job... enjoy a free daily breakfast and a free "recognition" dinner or two... I would say that the fixed fee a good value.

For those of us, that can only attend for all or part of the main rally, it is about the worst Airstreaming value out there.

As for the existence of National Caravans...A leader can do all the scouting and organizing  they like, but with out the "paying" folks, these would not exist... for sure.

I'm not sure why my providing more accurate per day Caravan kitty numbers over on the WBCCI forum has caused such a stir... seems a number of folks are gun shy about anything that can be construed as critical these days. I'm just offering a point of view held by me and my Airstreaming friends.

[KerrBett]

Steve: I don't think that I'm being at all sensitive, I just don't think that your point that leaders are getting a free ride is relevant with respect to caravans.  I fully agree with you on the International Rally - the fee structure clearly favours early workers and others who arrive early whether their efforts are needed or not.  Those who arrive with a caravan or just for the core rally dates pay a premium. That needs to be fixed. This is definitely not the case with respect to the kitty fee on a National caravan.  Comparing the two is apples and oranges.

I certainly don't dispute your calculation of average daily National caravan fees, but check out the competition and you will find that WBCCI is at the very low end of the price scale for what is offered.  Covering the National caravan leaders expenses is fair, reasonable and necessary.  WBCCI could do a lot more National caravans if members were willing to step up and make the very considerable commitment to plan, manage and operate them.  Unfortunately, very few members are willing or able to make such a large commitment.

If you are still working or are time limited, then Unit caravans could fit your bill and they are exempt from the National caravan guidelines.  As an example, I just completed leading a 12 day Ontario Canada Unit caravan which had a kitty fee of $550 that covered all camping, admissions to major historical attractions, a pancake breakfast, a closing banquet in an 1840's Fort and two cake and ice cream evenings.  The only expense that I billed to the caravan was for printing the Drivers manual.  That was my personal choice.  Would I commit to running it repeatedly for several years and pay my own expenses each time?   Not likely.

That said, a Unit caravan and a National are very different animals.  The guidelines for a National caravan, including reimbursement of leaders expenses, are based on experience and are necessary for the type of caravans offered.   Our efforts to improve WBCCI are better directed to the areas of the club that have serious problems. The caravan program isn't the problem.

Cheers,
Kerry

[ByamCaravanner]

Our efforts to improve WBCCI are better directed to the areas of the club that have serious problems. The caravan program isn't the problem.

Kerry,

Thanks for the reasoned response... it is a breath of fresh air compared to what I have been receiving on the supposed Official WBCCI forum.

I did not necessarily suggest that there was anything wrong with the Caravan leaders cost being rolled into rally kitty. I will say that if I was to run a Caravan with folks I hope to consider my friends, I would have trouble charging for some of the expenses listed. I don't doubt that some of the leaders feel the same way and make adjustments as they feel are right.

My point was that it seems to be no coincidence that this arrangement exists. Fits perfectly with the business plan.

The reason I point this out is that this type of arrangement is not what many of us want from our club.

We caravaned several times with the Airstream folks we camp with. Each time, there was no kitty... we all paid our own way, including the leader/organizer. We ate all meals together, taking turns with purchase/preparation. Folks tossed in as they saw fit... we always seemed to cover the cost just fine. We operated as a group... kind of a large family. To me, it was much more satisfying operating model.

I, in no way mean to suggest that the current ways be scrapped... just suggesting the type caravan many of us so called "younger" folks are looking for.

[KerrBett]

Steve: The type of caravan that you have enjoyed is the same as some of our Unit caravans.  We have had caravans with no kitty fee, a small kitty fee and a more comprehensive kitty fee. Each has its merits, depending on the number of participants and where you are going.  One advantage that I have found is that the kitty fee approach makes group reservations possible at much better prices than for individual billing. The downside is more administrative stuff handling thousands of dollars of other peoples money.

I chaired the Unit Officers session on Rallies and Caravans at Madison and, for the first time, gave equal billing to planning caravans.  Bob Bennett participated, also for the first time, and was amazed to learn how many Units are doing their own caravans.  It just confirms that the real strength of WBCCI is in active Units where friends are out doing what they enjoy.

Cheers,
Kerry

[WKerfoot]

Steve: The type of caravan that you have enjoyed is the same as some of our Unit caravans.  We have had caravans with no kitty fee, a small kitty fee and a more comprehensive kitty fee. Each has its merits, depending on the number of participants and where you are going.  One advantage that I have found is that the kitty fee approach makes group reservations possible at much better prices than for individual billing. The downside is more administrative stuff handling thousands of dollars of other peoples money.

I chaired the Unit Officers session on Rallies and Caravans at Madison and, for the first time, gave equal billing to planning caravans.  Bob Bennett participated, also for the first time, and was amazed to learn how many Units are doing their own caravans.  It just confirms that the real strength of WBCCI is in active Units where friends are out doing what they enjoy.

Cheers,
Kerry

After that participation by Bob Bennett, perhaps he will change his opinion on reducing the number of nights and members for a numbered unit caravan.

Bill

[Simon]

Just to keep you all up to date on how things are running on the forums - the newest tact that will be taken by the SUPER ADMINISTRATOR  - "supersix" is to have some members posts be moderated BEFORE it even gets posted - that means that the posts of SOME MEMBERS will have to be approved first by a moderator/administrator before it goes on the forums.
http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=223912

Steve - this might be you.....