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[Bob280]

Charlie,

It is believed that your concept of a fair and balanced forum will fail.

Oh! Wait! You did not asy anything about being fair and balanced.

With out which it will fairl even faster - That TOS is a real killer.

Tim and Leo score one - Charlie schores zero. So much for that ballgame.

However, in all fairness to Charlie, he is misguided and so his comments should be seen in that light.

Maybe it is time for a different, fair and balanced site (like Savewally) to provide real timely input , information, and discussions for WBCCI members. We could eliminate the bull by requiring the leadership to agree to the TOS. (har! har!)

thanks Charlie, your input is promoting change =.

   yes virginia, changes are coming. hura huray

[Bob280]

Charlie stated:"Even had a certified parliamentarian look it over."

BTW Charlie, what was that supposed to accomplish? As a member of the American Institute of Parliamentarians. (AIP) I can assure you that they  "advise" on "Procedures", and they do not, and should not, render opinions of the legal, logic or content of a contract or "TOS". So what 's the point? It doesn't impress me or other knowledgeable members (and there are thousands) one bit.

Knock off your bickering and start thinking of what is good for the Club.

Time you learned to work with and cooperate with the real workers in the club such as Tim and Leo.

Now you have heard my opinions and so it is time to get off my soapbox

[65GT]

There's the problem Charlie, in spades.  Slaving over an 1800+ word TOS for weeks.  Where'd you get that example from?

Then (shock and horror) you had a parliamentarian go over it? Say it isn't so Charlie.  Will we be required to wear the uniform before we log on?  Should we keep RRONR next to the mouse, every ready?

Charlie, bud, seriously, this whole thing is so sad it's simply not funny.  Here's a TOS for you:

"Users should try to behave in a polite manner towards one another.  Remember, it is extremely difficult to interpret the tone of an email message when serious matters are at hand.  Give the writer the benefit of the doubt that they are being constructive in their thoughts, and their opinions.  Pay close attention to emoticons, they can help reflect the real tone and intent of a message.  

Please try and abide by our club's code of ethics, but remember that the code of ethics simply does not apply to unanimous head nod elected leaders that are not performing as expected (these folks promise nothing).  Those individuals have stepped forward and volunteered to serve our club because they believed that they were made of the right stuff.  They believed, and represented themselves to those failed leaders that served before them, (that's how we CHOOSE leaders, there are no real elections) that they were qualified to serve our membership in a capacity that would ensure modest growth, profitibility, and at the same time increase membership value.  If they are failing in their commitments to serve this club, to meet those bare minimum requirements, then you are free to criticize them to any length you deem necessary in order to affect change, including their resignations from office, for failure to serve.  Our club deserves better, and so do you as a member.  Have a nice day."

I think that covers everything nicely, don't you Charlie?    I can't see having any problems with that TOS...  We're in such GREAT shape and all (in good times and in bad).  Who do we have to thank for that Charlie?  

[Simon]

I posted a reply to Charlie on WBCCI Forums telling Charlie that I do not interpret "sneak peak" to mean confidentiality at all. But rather, a simple "please do not pass this around" or a " don't show this to anybody" - that sort of thing as meaning confidentiality. Sorry if I was not aware of your understanding of the phrase. And, yes, I did copy the TOS - who else? I don't have to hide that. Actually, a derivative of that has been floating around for a while. I find it to be unnecessarily aggressive and quite frankly arrogant I would to love to know who authored it. I think also that it could be reduced to 3 paragraphs - 500 words that say the same thing without the user feeling like he/she just signed up for a 6 year enlistment. But that is for another thread someday.

Charlie, for whatever reason you contacted me to tell me you had your forums done. Why? I don't know. But all of the items I expressed as concerns were brushed aside and now you have a finished product. But will it work? Will it be the best thing for WBCCI? I do not think so.

I stand by my position. Those forums belong on a WBCCI owned domain - period. The confusion already exists - a user on AirForums asked,

Is the new WBCCI forum a Vintage (sub) Club forum or the Main Club's Forum?

I rest my case. It mis-identifies and denies the identity of the WBCCI. People will be confused. Maybe after a while they will get it.

But here is another issue - what if Gregory loses interest in maintaining it, maybe lets things slide a little, what then. Is Greg's paid web guy going to maintain it all the time or is that all on you now that it is done. I ask because (and I am sure this will be rectified VERY QUICKLY as soon as I mention it) Gregory Gibson is listed as the webmaster for WBCCI Region 3. Fine. Google "Region 3 wbcci" and what pops up but what appears as the web site - www.wbcci3.org. Click that link and guess what- you are taken to Gregory's web site, http://vintage-airstream.com. There you are prompted to buy a vintage 1971 Ambassador for $13,500 (are they really worth that much?).
So - yes, this concerns me greatly. Under the WBCCI Umbrella this will not happen. Under Vintage-airstream.com I just do not know. I hope the forums is not a front to just sell Airstream trailers at a healthy markup! Because if it it, THAT is not servicing the club. And it is inappropriate that somebody representing WBCCI as the region 3 webmaster (webmaster3 on the current WBCCI forums) is sending people over to his own web site rather than the proper one - http://region3.wbcci.net. Which by the way, looks like there is some coding issues there as well that you may want to clean up, Greg.

Yes - no issues not hosting the forums on a vendor's site indeed.

BTW Charlie, I did take a screen pict of the site the day I visited it. But as to your statement that I also altered it... I did not. I have no need to do that. It appears exactly as I saw it on my browser.

And Greg - My identity appears in my signature - it is my WBCCI # - I don't have to hide from anybody. I don't understand why your was absent from your post... Hmmm.
I do love your quote...

No one's "hiding"
Timothy Kendziorski & Kimber Moore ironically with YOUR information blocked so no one can see.

and I call 'em like I see 'em. Tell me I lie.

It is what it is and the gorilla routine doesn't
scare or phase me a bit.
I eat keyboard bullies for breakfast.
I promise you'll end up biting off more than you can chew here.

Say - where is the WBCCI old forums moderator now? I have seen posts with less severe things cut from there... WAIT, never mind, I forgot who was moderating. Hmm - standards in moderation indeed.

I am biting off more than I can chew, Greg? Really? Is that some sort of challenge? Because if it is, the only way I lose is when the entire club loses. I am not in a contest with you, Greg. I have offered a solution where you could still get the credit for having your paid web guy put the forums together, you can still have your linkback to your business as a corporate sponsor (now that the EC has determined that you are a sanctioned vendor) and WBCCI gets to own the space and the name so that things like redirects to sites selling vintage trailers at a markup are avoided.

I guess it is just me but even though the forums have not gone live, the membership is already suffering.... Maybe there is hope. My offer to WBCCI still stands.

[Airedale]

ummm.....wow.... I go to work on the trailer for a few hours, and I miss all this great posting, gosh, I need to spend more time in front of the computer. After reading everything from this thread, I believe I will say whats on my mind.

First, I do not believe the URL should be provided by a vendor. This seems to silly to me, even after Tim has offered to pay for the URL! Why not take that, then you dont feel like you forums always have to be in the hands of a vendor.

Charlie, I for one type in almost every url I use. Although I do use bookmarks sometimes, I can type the url quicker then using a bookmark.

As for the TOS, my goodness, It would almost drive me away! You may want to make it shorter!

Im looking at all of this as an effort to show myself that I must do more to better the club. I dont plan on running from the floor for International President anytime soon, but this is just one of the things that shows me that this club really does need to work on a few things. I try to make my unit better, but one thing I have learned, is that it is something I cant do on my own, and teamwork is the only thing that can change it. I believe that is something here at Savewally.org we do really well. We are a team, working to make this club a better experience for its members, and hopefully soon-to-be members. I think that something so small, can change so many views. Why must the club spend money like it grows on trees? Even if this URL isnt costing the club any money, they still have a vendor that they must provide a link on the site to, why not just take the free URL and call it a day? I hope this is not the start of stupid decisions to come for the club! Tim may be busy, but who isnt anymore? I have never known Tim to not keep his word, if he says he will do something, he will do it. Its not too late to change this boo boo! Bust out the Band-aids and patch-er up, and lets make this forum something all members can be proud of!

But if their has to be a vendor link to the forums, or other aspects of the WBCCI site, then I would like to give some money towards making the main page of the WBCCI website    www.savewally.wbcci.org

[Simon]

Looks like that WBCCI3.org redirect to Vintage-Airstream.com goes deeper than I thought (thank God for Google's "inurl:" search feature). There are more units than I thought who are still displaying links to that old address meaning people are being directed to a site they didn't expect to see...
We have so far:
http://airstream-adventures.com/FU/Florida_Unit.html at the bottom
http://www.sccoastalunit.com/links.html - right there at the top.
http://northportlady.googlepages.com/home at the bottom.
http://www.wncu-wbcci.com/2.html towards the top.
http://virginia.wbcci.net/links-2/ 2nd to the last link. Reads "WBCCI Region3 AIRSTREAM Owners Welcome You!"  Maybe it should read Vintage-Airstream.com welcomes you!
http://www.aboutus.org/Wbcci3.org They have it right - it lists the page as actually Vintage-Airstream.com, which as of this writing it still is.
http://encu.wbcci.net/encu-the-itchy-hitch-newsletter-feb-2009/ towards the top.
http://www.tidewaterwbcci.com/homepage.html - right there up front.

This wbcci3.org thing is most likely just an accident, you know, not paying attention to detail sort of thing. I do it all the time, believe me. But it continues to illustrate my point. And the effects are far reaching...

[Simon]

Charlie & Greg - I want to mention that even though these conversations can get a little heated we do like to have some fun with it. Joe is right in that we can get along as Wally surely would have wanted. I am betting you would not like to meet up at my trailer for a cocktail or two and perhaps a round of Rock Paper Scissors to settle the matter once and for all!
If not, I understand and will get back to my level of vitriol. Greg, I am assuming that you will be at International, right?

Let me know.....

[Simon]

Oops - likes we ran into a little snag. As of the 11th of June, Mr Gibson was not a member in good standing in the WBCCI.   Looks like that might have to be fixed because if he wasn't a member in good standing, what does that mean about the dependency of his hosting? Why would he care about the WBCCI? Does he care about the WBCCI? Bummer, because I guess that means that he will not make it to International after all.

Hey, the good news is that with this post I bet I just got the WBCCI a new member, or at least a HOT RENEW!! See I am helping the club!

Now if we could only get that little http://wbcci3.org thing fixed....... Sure would not want to give the wrong impression.

WBCCI - my offer still stands....... It is the safer bet!

[65GT]

...and just when you thought it couldn't get any worse...

Here is a post that was selectively deleted over at WBCCI.org/forums from this morning.  Notice that Chairman Burke is quick to chastise those that are dealing with this issue, but also notice that either Mr. Burke, or a non-member (fact) that has exclusive moderator access on our forums, found it appropriate to delete their own posting in the thread.  Mere members can't delete their own postings, but non-member Moderators can.  THIS is the type of 'do as I say, not as I do' that we can expect from the brand new proposed owner of the WBCCI forums, Vintage-Airstream.com...

Nothing doctored here in any way, this was the actual post left by the new proposed owner of WBCCI forums.  I'm sure that many of you saw it first hand.  Whether deleted by our Chairman, or by the new owner of our WBCCI forums (Vintage-Airstream.com) THIS is what our Electronics Communication Chairman has in store for us.

I'm confident that the IBT will wrap their arms tightly around this new deal, don't you think?  Poor Charlie, there goes that confirmation hearing...

"Be that as it may, this sort of dialogue does great damage to this club you claim to support." - CBBurke

Oh, in case you want to see what that page looks like now... (post editing)...

http://wbcci.org/forum/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=14&Topic=691&srow=11&erow=20

[Simon]

I think that there is hope that the forums will not on Greg's site forever... I dug this out of a message Charlie sent me on the 10th of February. But now when I read it, I wonder....

Divestiture is not in the immediate future. Economics is a major concern at this point in time. If at some point the website/forum can become self supporting from ad or classified revenues a separation can be revisited.

Divestiture I guess means from Vintage-Airstream.com's holding? Or is that from WBCCI?
Economics I guess means the cost of the hosting??? Remember, my gift is free!
But the last part - website/forums can be self supporting from ads and classified revenues? What ads are going to be sold? Used trailers? How convenient! But is part of the plan also to have the WBCCI's website also hosted as a subdomain under Greg's site? Ah, now the stomach churns.
And when we DO divest ourselves, do we then utilize the services of the club membership to manage those assets?

Why not skip the middleman right here and now?
I don't know what the plan is but I am guessing that this will be somehow VOTED on at International. Whether or not that is the case, I think that if my gift is not accepted by the end of International, it will be withdrawn.

[Charlie]

Simon (Tim K),

Now I'm confused. If you didn't alter the image you took then somebody has been messing around on your new URL www.wbcciforums.org. The image there has clearly been altered.

This should be the new home of the WBCCI's Forums...

It has been offered to WBCCI - domain name and hosting, completely free,  no endorsements or requirements for reimbursements of any kind.

Mr. Garvey,

Mere members can't delete their own postings, but non-member Moderators can.

It doesn't take much for you to stretch something you haven't fact checked into a "truth" does it? But then you're good at that aren't you? Now you can repeat a few dozen times until people start quoting it as a fact. Strike 1.

Any individual can delete their own posts. Strike 2.

[65GT]

Perhaps you'd like to provide a screen shot of that 'delete' procedure?  I've been on wbcci.org/forum for 3+ years.  I have never been able to find a button or a command to delete a message.  Looking forward to seeing this procedure... 

[Simon]

Ah - It being WBCCIforums.org. I am surprised you didn't quite get it. I'll fix that straight away. Glad to see Greg got that WBCCI3.org thing straightened out....

Simon (Tim K),

Now I'm confused. If you didn't alter the image you took then somebody has been messing around on your new URL www.wbcciforums.org. The image there has clearly been altered.

This should be the new home of the WBCCI's Forums...

It has been offered to WBCCI - domain name and hosting, completely free,  no endorsements or requirements for reimbursements of any kind.

Mr. Garvey,

Mere members can't delete their own postings, but non-member Moderators can.

It doesn't take much for you to stretch something you haven't fact checked into a "truth" does it? But then you're good at that aren't you? Now you can repeat a few dozen times until people start quoting it as a fact. Strike 1.

Any individual can delete their own posts. Strike 2.

[Simon]

There you go - Does that work better???

[Charlie]

There you go - Does that work better???

Don't know, still looks like an altered image on my browser. Different words, same taken image with stuff added.